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shoshauney

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Posts: 451 Member Since:07/07/12

#161 [url]

Aug 11 12 5:44 AM

               
I think there is a fine line between getting over the point that the words we use matter, and finding every other word said about addiction or addicts as offensive.
This is not a dig at anyone, just MHO.

-sapphire76


 
well put, I agree 100%

Learn a lesson from your dog. No matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that sh*t and move on!

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cherbear

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Posts: 694 Member Since:02/22/10

#162 [url]

Aug 11 12 8:43 AM

It is certainly not the start of WW3, but I want all of us to keep in mind that what we say, even about ourselves has impact.  And maybe I have no business to talk, I am just a counselor.

I don't like the term Methadonian due to the movie plus I know that all of my patients are so much more than the medicine they take.  All people from Washington are not the same. Yes, it might be "cutsie", but I think in some ways it perpetuates Stigma.  I am thinking of other terms that group people with negative connotation, for example "Polac" in grouping folks of Polish Ancestry.

I just prefer person first language, because that is what we are, people first.  I have a card a former patient wrote me as she moved to a new state that said, "Thank you for not treating me like a Methadone Patient, but instead a Person on Methadone." 

I think of terms as keeping people in boxes sometimes-for example I have some staff that refer to themselves as "dope fiends" despite the fact that they have been in recovery for a long time.

Or I have a daughter who I got in the bad habit of calling "Beautiful Girl"  I had to make a concerted effort to stop, not because she is not beautiful, but beacause she is so much more than just a pretty face!

And perhaps it is like the "N" word in that you can refer to yourself as a Methadonian, but someone else calling you that that is derogatory.

Does that make any sense?


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shoshauney

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Posts: 451 Member Since:07/07/12

#163 [url]

Aug 11 12 10:19 AM

It does make sense and I see what you mean. Not everyone has to always agree and that's what makes life so colorful :) I still feel how I feel but 100% respect your opinion

Learn a lesson from your dog. No matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that sh*t and move on!

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ccourtneymac

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Posts: 1,407 Member Since:09/19/11

#164 [url]

Aug 11 12 11:25 PM

Way, My Goddess I am going to age myself with this one.  I was working in Seattle, early 1990's an article came out in Hustler (I KNOW I KNOW)  showing the picture of the guy at a dosing window leaning on the ledge with the little cup tapping the bottom of it, while up in his mouth.  It was about 6 months later, HBO ran that special called Methadonia.  It was so freaking offensive literally following one man around going from clinic to clinic getting admitted and dosed.  Making out that it was "Legalized drug dealing".  I have to admit because of where I heard it, it is not a term I use simply from what I remember of the special.  Okay, these old brain cells don't always fire right yanno? And this old body started AQUA ZUMBA this week  I have had my ass kicked by doing this in a pool.  Punch the water my ass!  It punches back.  Today even my freaking Hair hurts!WW ::: Creaking her way over to her rocker:::

-whippy_witch

LMAO, I saw that Hustler, and the picture is burned in my mind.  Yeah for water aerobics, btw!

As for the discussion, I would prefer not to be called a "Methadonian."  I do not think it helps to humanize ANYBODY to be called by a drug they happen to take.  THE DRUGS I TAKE DO NOT DEFINE ME.  When they gave me Prozac was I a Prozackian?  When they gave me Effexor was I an Effexorian?  lol  I do not mind being called a Southerner, because the South is not a drug that most of humanity HATES with a BLOOD RED PASSION...  On an off note, I do not think any harm was meant by @Way calling us Methadonians to Ms. Katy.  

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sapphire76

Posts: 3,678 Member Since:02/22/10

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#165 [url]

Aug 12 12 6:30 AM

I don't think the term is ideal, but if we start saying we're offended by words like methadonian, I feel that it takes weight out of the argument when we say we find words like junkie offensive.
Like people won't take it seriously if we find everything offensive, so we might as well focus on the very negative terms, like junkie, clean, dirty, iyswim, anyway, just my own POV and ramblings!

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shoshauney

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Posts: 451 Member Since:07/07/12

#166 [url]

Aug 12 12 6:50 AM

I would never use the term methadonian anywhere but where I was with people I have that connection with. Anyway inline reading the diff points of view. One of my fave things about this board is the open and honest conversations about all different topics and life view points.

Learn a lesson from your dog. No matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that sh*t and move on!

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pigeon

Posts: 58 Member Since:02/22/10

#168 [url]

Aug 12 12 12:04 PM

Harm Reduction, esp. as education could have prevented this. The kids should have learned grades ago that opioids kill and how they kill, kids remember this stuff well once taught it properly - not DARE crap but real, thorough HR oriented eduction about substance use/abuse. The hospital staff obviously had no clue what they were doing. ER staff are often the worst of the staff at a hospital. Even a poison control center would have had the proper information and directed you back to the ER, where your son should have been for at least 48 hours, if not more. Insurance companies need to demand that their patients be treated for ODs properly and thoroughly. Narcan alone is not the solution to any opioid OD, unless someone had many vials of it and is willing to sit, watch, stay awake and ride out the drugs long half life, b/c they'll need to re-administer once every two hours until the methadone is completely metabolized, and the benzo added in makes Narcan less effective. This person should have been at a hospital with a competent staff, using a blood analyzer and following proper protocols to reverse the OD. I've been through a few ODs of others and they survived only b/c either the hospital staff or myself knew what the person needed to survive. 

I cannot imagine the terrible pain this young man's mother and family is feeling. The thing I feared the most when I was using was leaving my mother to memorialize me as a victim of the drug war and my own recklessness. But did that stop me? Only after it was almost too late many, many times.

Former user in recovery and a Watchdog member since 2004

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ccourtneymac

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Posts: 1,407 Member Since:09/19/11

#169 [url]

Aug 13 12 12:29 AM

I don't think the term is ideal, but if we start saying we're offended by words like methadonian, I feel that it takes weight out of the argument when we say we find words like junkie offensive.Like people won't take it seriously if we find everything offensive, so we might as well focus on the very negative terms, like junkie, clean, dirty, iyswim, anyway, just my own POV and ramblings!

-sapphire76

@Sapphire, point made, I hear ya.  Of course, it helps to point out that being "offended" and would "prefer not to be/to be" are two different things.

Most of us are HIGHLY OFFENDED by animal  cruelty, but most of us PREFER butter on our toast.

Crap that does not make any sense...or does it?

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sapphire76

Posts: 3,678 Member Since:02/22/10

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#170 [url]

Aug 13 12 3:25 AM

@Court - yep, I get what you're saying! Prefer is definately "preferable" to offended!!

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shoshauney

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Posts: 451 Member Since:07/07/12

#171 [url]

Aug 13 12 5:22 AM

lol!! that was an extreme comparison @court!!!  :) :)

Learn a lesson from your dog. No matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that sh*t and move on!

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katyrae2

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Posts: 60 Member Since:03/29/12

#172 [url]

Aug 13 12 2:28 PM

thank you, yes the grief is very much still here and sometimes I think it would be easier to just let it go but for my son I cannot. I have to fight for him and every other young adult out there that this might happen to , God forbid. You are right had they just kept him for even a day he would have been there when his vitals began crashing, heart beat slowing down , blood pressure dropping dangerously low, throwing up to the point he got dry heaves and began making gurgling noises, this wouldnt have ever happened, this I am sure of 150%!  Jesse would be alive today. I dont like judging anyone for anything, none of us are perfect and we all come with a past, I dont want to ban methadone, or stop people from getting it if this helps them to live a healthy productive life and I know it does for so many, I just believe there needs to be more education out there for the doctors who arent familiar with methadone and I believe the clinics out there need to be more diligent in making sure theyre following the rules and guide lines set forth for their clients, I think some clinics might become a little laxed and others go over board with the rules..... but every one deserves another chance you know.

I miss my son so very much, every day is a struggle to get through, I miss seeing his face and hearing his voice so bad.  I still havent accepted the fact hes gone, that he really died, and like you said, it was preventable, he shouldnt have died.  This attorney works for a large firm, though Ive had atleast three other firms interested in our case now, I was so scared no one would take it and my sons death would be for nothing, now I have hope that this wont ever happen to another kid again, atleast I pray not. 
thanks for your support, best wishes to you
Kristine

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shoshauney

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Posts: 451 Member Since:07/07/12

#173 [url]

Aug 13 12 3:32 PM

Kristine, I can hardly even comprehend what you have lost. You are an amazing woman for so many reasons. For one you are here still supporting the drug that took your child, you are fighting for change so other parents dont have to go through what you have and you are STILL going.

As I write this I am tearing up because all can really be lost in a moment and my beautiful boy is the reason I get up every day. Your precious Jesse did not deserve what he got. Faulty medical care!!! Please fight and dont give up. When this part is over, find something else to fight. I will never forget this story and it has really reminded me to be careful with my medicine. Around my 14 yo step daughter and my son. Accidents happen!!!

I am rambling now but if I could hug you I would, again - from the bottom of my heart I am so sorry for your loss. RIP Jesse xoxoxo

Learn a lesson from your dog. No matter what life brings you, kick some grass over that sh*t and move on!

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crystal adkins21

Posts: 12 Member Since:04/12/13

#174 [url]

Apr 12 13 11:17 AM

I am so sorry for your loss, and I don't blame you one bit for wanting to sue the hospital that you took your son to. I just don't understand how they could send someone home after knowing that they injested that much methadone on top of his lorazapan. I hate to ask you this, but is there any chance that he took more lorazapan after he got home? That is what it sounds like to me, since so much time had passed. Again, I am so sorry for your whole families loss.

Crystal Adkins

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katyrae2

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Posts: 60 Member Since:03/29/12

#176 [url]

Apr 13 13 6:20 PM

d@crystal no my son actually never ingested or took any of his lorazapan on saturday or Sunday. He only ingested the methadone. his toxicology report showed .42mg/L of methadone and nothing else. he had methadone metabolites in his urine. in his blood and in the visteral fluid i think. his cause of death METHADONE INTOXICATION. its been 14 months since finding jesse and i still cannot believe hes gone. my life is pretty much over now i just live toexx
ist and nothing more. i ask myself how could this have happened, but there are no answers. jesses whole family has basically went down hill so many miss him. why couldnt those two drs just have done their jobs right! we do have a wonddrful lawyer who has filed suit on our behave, its so hard every time something from their office comes in the mail its like i have to relive that whole terrible morning over n over. in honor of my son Jesse Trey this can never happen again. he didnt deserve to die the way he did. he thought he was just gonna go home and sleep and be better the next day and so did i but instead he died. the person who gave it tl him was never located. the lawsuit has been filed and currently moving forward. we expect to go to trial. Justice for Jesse

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zac talbott

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Posts: 745 Member Since:03/02/13

#177 [url]

Apr 13 13 10:00 PM

80mg's (or less) can certainly be toxic for an opioid naive individual. I am so sorry for you loss, and my heart breaks as I read this thread. 

zt

Zac Talbott | Director & Patient Advocate

Together we can make a difference!

Visit NAMA Recovery's We Speak Methadone (and buprenorphine) Forums
and/or the Methadone & Buprenorphine Discussion group on Facebook

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oldnwise

Posts: 177 Member Since:03/06/10

#178 [url]

Apr 18 13 12:11 PM

d@crystal no my son actually never ingested or took any of his lorazapan on saturday or Sunday. He only ingested the methadone. his toxicology report showed .42mg/L of methadone and nothing else. he had methadone metabolites in his urine. in his blood and in the visteral fluid i think. his cause of death METHADONE INTOXICATION. its been 14 months since finding jesse and i still cannot believe hes gone. my life is pretty much over now i just live toexx
ist and nothing more. i ask myself how could this have happened, but there are no answers. jesses whole family has basically went down hill so many miss him. why couldnt those two drs just have done their jobs right! we do have a wonddrful lawyer who has filed suit on our behave, its so hard every time something from their office comes in the mail its like i have to relive that whole terrible morning over n over. in honor of my son Jesse Trey this can never happen again. he didnt deserve to die the way he did. he thought he was just gonna go home and sleep and be better the next day and so did i but instead he died. the person who gave it tl him was never located. the lawsuit has been filed and currently moving forward. we expect to go to trial. Justice for Jesse

-katyrae2


Hello; I was not around here to read this thread when it began and I got all the way through it before realizing it was at least a year ago.  
First, I too, wish to say how deeply sorry I am for the loss of your son.  I'm sure that pain is horrible enough, even without all the stress and ordeal of the lack of proper medical care, when you take someone to the ER , you put them in the medical teams care, assuming they will do the best they can and you don't think they would do something so completely inept as what happened in your son's case. 
The whole time I was reading different posts, (this may really be a moot point but it was something that caught my attention as far as your son's friends) when his ankle was injured and he was in pain , if I read it correctly , his friends told him "we have some pain medicine here........this methadone is for pain" (yea I paraphrased how they said it but that was the gist I got) .......well, it struck me as odd, because the bottles of liquid methadone described, is NOT used for pain management, but for drug treatment for addiction.    Unless things have changed in this country that I am unaware of, when it is used for pain, it is in pill form.

Just wanted to point that out.  I am adding what has been already said, which is , indeed, if someone was opiate naive , a dose half that much could certainly kill a person, and would.  And, yes, because the way methadone works, it stays in the system much longer than other types of medicines and so yes, it will definitely build up over time.  It does not immediately cause effects and then quickly diminish, which is why it was found to be such a great medicine for opiate addiction, because of that long term level in the system, which works to prevent wearing off and having withdrawal symptoms sooner.
For acute pain, things like Vicoden, etc, is what is used.

I am curious too, the toxicology report mentioned methadone metabolites.    I am pretty sure I will be corrected by other posters, if I am wrong, but I think that might mean your son had it in his system before that day ?   Is that possible ?   Because the metabolites is what is in the body after the methadone is processed, and as has been said, that takes time.....  I am not able to immediately quote the half life and all that , right now, but others here probably can explain that or I could try to look it up.  I have seen it before, explained........the urine tests I take at my clinic and my experience with the methadone and metabolites is why I know a bit about it.   I have an over active bladder which makes my urine tests sometimes show metabolites only, long story...

But anyway, I have read on this site , or a similar one "we speak methadone", about people who did OD because they were drinking the methadone to get "high" or whatever reason, and did not feel anything so they drank some more.  Still felt nothing, so drank more.........and ended up overdosing because of that slow metabolizing factor.

"When I was 40, I used to wonder what people thought of me. Now, I wonder what I think of them." ~Brooke Astor~

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scotty

Posts: 3 Member Since:03/16/13

#179 [url]

Apr 18 13 12:54 PM

Very bad advice to "sleep it off." They should have given him an antogonist, NarC, but they probaby thought, "Oh,he'll go into withdrawls and then what do we do with him?"

Sadly, Health Care when it comes to some providers, treat MMT and addicted patients as if they are not worth much...or much trouble. Sad, but true.

A friend of mine, a real wild man out of Texas, starts his conversations with providers with this salvo: "Heh, did you know Methadone is Medicine?" And then lays pamphlets on them...kind of overwhelms their ignorance, their discriminatory reasoning, their lack of ethical treatment of patients.   

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scotty

Posts: 3 Member Since:03/16/13

#180 [url]

Apr 18 13 1:00 PM

Your experience very much mirrors my own,in regards to keeping an eye on prejudiced, over-worked,over-tired,and over-confident emergency room personnel who simpy brush off "as addicts," and "worthless" those with substance problems.

I suppose they would have let Coleridge, the great writer, die, or Hart Crane, or Robert Louis Stevenson, or others, who were in the grip of opium addictions for many years, or a lifetime. Coleridge had a physician who "helped" him, keeping him on low, productive doses, and so forth....and we have the treasure of this "addict" with us today.

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